IFR Question: DP vs. Clearance

[MRC01]

Your IFR clearance includes "yelm 5 departure" and also says altitude 2000, expect 4000 after 5 minutes.
The Yelm 5 departure says heading 064 to 3000', then radar vectors and filed altitude.
You just departed, turned to 064 and are climbing through 1800' as you contact ATC. ATC replies "radar contact" but does not give a vector.
It's been only 2 minutes since departure.
Questions:
1. Do you climb to 3000 according to the DP, or do you stop at 2000 since that is your clearance? Put differently: you've been cleared to fly the departure procedure which says 3000', but your clearance altitude is only 2000', how to resolve the conflict - which applies?
2. Is it recommended to contact ATC and ask for altitude & vector? Or is this unnecessary because there's a rule to you're supposed know that resolves the question?

 

[Cap'n Ron]

The answer would depend in part on whether or not the clearance included "climb via the SID", whether the 3000 is hardlined, and whether it's a Vector or Pilot Nav SID. But I'd need to see the SID chart, and I can't find the YELM FIVE SID. What airport?

 

[MRC01]

The answer would depend in part on whether or not the clearance included "climb via the SID", whether the 3000 is hardlined, and whether it's a Vector or Pilot Nav SID. But I'd need to see the SID chart, and I can't find the YELM FIVE SID. What airport?

KOLM (departing rwy 17)

 

[Cap'n Ron]

It's a vector SID, not Pilot Nav, so unless the controller tells you "climb via SID," the controller's instructions take precedence. Unless comm is lost (in which case you follow the lost comm instructions on the SID), you stay on the 064 heading and maintain 2000, and no query is necessary unless you think you're about to fly into a rock (which isn't going to happen for quite a while on that heading).

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's a vector SID, not Pilot Nav, so unless the controller tells you "climb via SID," the controller's instructions take precedence. Unless comm is lost (in which case you follow the lost comm instructions on the SID), you stay on the 064 heading and maintain 2000, and no query is necessary unless you think you're about to fly into a rock (which isn't going to happen for quite a while on that heading).

And if they did say “climb via the SID” but gave a hard altitude, there’d be a problem. So much depends on the exact wording,

 

[midlifeflyer]

Your IFR clearance includes "yelm 5 departure" and also says altitude 2000, expect 4000 after 5 minutes.
The Yelm 5 departure says heading 064 to 3000', then radar vectors and filed altitude.
You just departed, turned to 064 and are climbing through 1800' as you contact ATC. ATC replies "radar contact" but does not give a vector.
It's been only 2 minutes since departure.
Questions:
1. Do you climb to 3000 according to the DP, or do you stop at 2000 since that is your clearance? Put differently: you've been cleared to fly the departure procedure which says 3000', but your clearance altitude is only 2000', how to resolve the conflict - which applies?

I agree with Ron’s take, although p, based on your description, it sounds like they did not say, “climb via the SID” since that would preclude giving a pun altitude. If they did say “climb via the SID” with an altitude change, I would expect it to be, “climb via the SID, except maintain 2,000,” which also overrides the 3,000’ altitude.

I think of SIDs and STARs as canned ATC instructions. That means ATC can change them. If ATC cleared me to 2000’ that’s where I would level off.

2. Is it recommended to contact ATC and ask for altitude & vector? Or is this unnecessary because there's a rule to you're supposed know that resolves the question?

Basically, absent an emergency you fly what you were instructed. That’s the rule. On a heading and altitude for a few minutes? Sounds like you were where they wanted you. OTOH, there is never any harm in clarifying if you have a question.

 

[MRC01]

OK so even though the Yelm 5 departure says 3000, I would level off at 2000 because the clearance issued to me before takeoff overrides that. And stay on heading 064 until ATC issues a vector. And if they don't for a while, then remind them and ask.

 

[Cap'n Ron]

OK so even though the Yelm 5 departure says 3000, I would level off at 2000 because the clearance issued to me before takeoff overrides that. And stay on heading 064 until ATC issues a vector. And if they don't for a while, then remind them and ask.

 

[MRC01]

... If they did say “climb via the SID” with an altitude change, I would expect it to be, “climb via the SID, except maintain 2,000,” which also overrides the 3,000’ altitude.

If they had said "except maintain 2000", I would have recognized it from ground school. But they didn't. The clearance was "Yelm 5 departure, direct OLM, V287" for route, and "2000, expect 4000 in 5 minutes" for altitude.

Basically, absent an emergency you fly what you were instructed. That’s the rule.

Which led to my question, since I was instructed to fly Yelm 5, which says altitude 3000, but also to fly altitude 2000, and it seemed like a contradiction since they didn't use the phrasing that I learned in ground school.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Which led to my question, since I was instructed to fly Yelm 5, which says altitude 3000, but also to fly altitude 2000, and it seemed like a contradiction since they didn't use the phrasing that I learned in ground school.

I understand and it's a good question. There were plenty of problems when the "climb via" nomenclature first went into effect. That's exactly why I always talk about SIDs and STARs being nothing more than canned ATC instructions. They are charted to save time. and make life easy for both controllers and pilots.

Take this one. All it is is a charted version of calling up Clearance Deliver and hearing:

"Cleared to the AAA airport. Via on departure turn left heading 064. Radar vectors BBB. Climb and maintain 3000. Expect X0000 10 minutes after departure. Departure frequency 121.1. Squawk ####."​

​

This only difference is, this time, CD "said,"

"Cleared to the AAA airport. Via on departure turn left heading 064. Radar vectors BBB. Climb and maintain 2000. Expect X0000 10 minutes after departure. Departure frequency 121.1. Squawk ####."​

Not hearing "climb via ... except"? If you don't hear "climb via," it just means "charted altitude restrictions don't count. Do what I tell you." (BTW, the only altitude restriction I see on the chart is to be at or above 3,000 prior to the lost comm turn off runway 17.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

BTW, If you haven't, it's a good idea to review this FAA InFO about climb/descend via.