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Instrument training update

A formation operates as one single aircraft. Why in the world was tower treating Condor 2 like a separate aircraft?

And I'm wondering why you were doing an IFR XC on your third(?) instrument training flight. Have you already completed basic instruments (full and partial panel), basic radio nav (VOR orientation, interception, and tracking), holding patterns, and approaches? I must have missed that.
 
That must have been frustrating!
 
Cap'n Ron said:
A formation operates as one single aircraft. Why in the world was tower treating Condor 2 like a separate aircraft?

And I'm wondering why you were doing an IFR XC on your third(?) instrument training flight. Have you already completed basic instruments (full and partial panel), basic radio nav (VOR orientation, interception, and tracking), holding patterns, and approaches? I must have missed that.
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midlifeflyer said:
That's a good question.
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Wendy has been working on her instrument rating for a while now and has posted various updates about her progress. While she feels like she is progressing slowly, it's clear that she has been making steady progress.
 
Brian said:
Wendy has been working on her instrument rating for a while now and has posted various updates about her progress. While she feels like she is progressing slowly, it's clear that she has been making steady progress.
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The question is mostly about cross country timing. I think when you say cross country and IFR training, people make the assumption that you are talking about the required dual cross country which it typically pretty close to the end of the process. Of course, you could also be talking about "a" cross country rather than "the" cross country. Although less common, it not out of the question to build the required 50 cross country PIC hours during training.
 
I'm familiar with the dual cross country near the end of the training but that's not what Wendy is talking about (I think). If I recall correctly, she and her CFII have been making "cross country" flights to practice approaches at different airports. I "think" that's what she is describing here.
 
A formation operates as one single aircraft. Why in the world was tower treating Condor 2 like a separate aircraft?

Likely because the Condor aircraft didn't identify themselves as a "Flight".


She wrote that:
Condor One was cleared and landed. Condor Two turned...
Looks to me like, at least when they landed, they regarded themselves as four individual aircraft, as did the controller.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Although less common, it not out of the question to build the required 50 cross country PIC hours during training.
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I do and have done a few students this way. As soon as they completed Private they wanted to jump into instrument. So after a few lessons on techniques, and they are ready for approaches, we fly to a couple different airports that are 55-60 miles away. XC Hood time on the way there, fly the procedure turn and approach, go full missed procedure, then back to home base and fly an approach here. usually winds up about 2 hours logged as XC, with 1.5 or more actual hood time. So they easily have the 50 XC hours before the checkride. Saves $$$ And as long as no convective, we fly. My last student had over 20 hours of actual IMC logged before his checkride. I like my students get this experience with me, and not have their first IMC to be flying friends and family later.
 
Cap'n Ron said:
A formation operates as one single aircraft. Why in the world was tower treating Condor 2 like a separate aircraft?

And I'm wondering why you were doing an IFR XC on your third(?) instrument training flight. Have you already completed basic instruments (full and partial panel), basic radio nav (VOR orientation, interception, and tracking), holding patterns, and approaches? I must have missed that.
Click to expand...
Ron, I have done all those things, not all of them well quite yet. Going at this slowly, especially because a year in I realized my first instructor was not letting me make progress.

I have no idea why the planes were treated separately, but I assume that even if they are treated as a single aircraft they have to land one at a time.
 
Brian said:
I'm familiar with the dual cross country near the end of the training but that's not what Wendy is talking about (I think). If I recall correctly, she and her CFII have been making "cross country" flights to practice approaches at different airports. I "think" that's what she is describing here
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I had more than 50 hours of VFR cross country before I ever started the IFR training. And Brian is right, these “cross country” flights are so I can deal with things that change on route, look up different approaches than we had planned, and — this last time — see how I handled the radios crossing the LA airspace, which is quite a bit busier than flying around Camarillo, Oxnard, Santa Ynez and Santa Maria.
 
Edward Todd said:
I do and have done a few students this way. As soon as they completed Private they wanted to jump into instrument. So after a few lessons on techniques, and they are ready for approaches, we fly to a couple different airports that are 55-60 miles away. XC Hood time on the way there, fly the procedure turn and approach, go full missed procedure, then back to home base and fly an approach here. usually winds up about 2 hours logged as XC, with 1.5 or more actual hood time. So they easily have the 50 XC hours before the checkride. Saves $$$ And as long as no convective, we fly. My last student had over 20 hours of actual IMC logged before his checkride. I like my students get this experience with me, and not have their first IMC to be flying friends and family later.
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I have spent less than an hour so far in actual IMC. Hoping to do more with an instructor.
 
Edward Todd said:
I like my students get this experience with me, and not have their first IMC to be flying friends and family later.
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the good news is that pilots who have had little or no actual during training generally don't jump into it with friends and family. Most I encounter even avoid it solo without additional training.
 
BananAppeal said:
Ron, I have done all those things, not all of them well quite yet. Going at this slowly, especially because a year in I realized my first instructor was not letting me make progress.
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Glad to hear that. I've done too many finish-ups in folks whom their previous instructor was having them do approaches on like the third lesson. Usually turns out they had no idea what they were doing or how to do it and were doing no more than applying control inputs based on "turn left/turn right speed up/slow down climb/descend" commands from the instructor. I'd usually have to go "back to basics" with them before going forward with their training.
BananAppeal said:
I have no idea why the planes were treated separately, but I assume that even if they are treated as a single aircraft they have to land one at a time.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. A formation is supposed to be controlled as though the entire formation is just one big airplane. As such, the Tower is responsible only to provide separation in front of the lead plane and behind the last plane. Spacing between the planes within the formation is entirely the formation pilots' responsibility. They must remain within one mile horizontally be 100 feet vertically from Lead, although in the pattern from downwind on they'll typically be about 500 feet in trail of the formation member ahead after they break from the close formation held entering the pattern. Tower clears the flight to land as a group ("Condor 1 flight cleared to land") and never speaks to any plane in the flight other than Lead.
 
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BananAppeal said:
I had more than 50 hours of VFR cross country before I ever started the IFR training. And Brian is right, these “cross country” flights are so I can deal with things that change on route, look up different approaches than we had planned, and — this last time — see how I handled the radios crossing the LA airspace, which is quite a bit busier than flying around Camarillo, Oxnard, Santa Ynez and Santa Maria.
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I just LOVE seeing all these updates from you - keep it up!
 
Cap'n Ron said:
Glad to hear that. I've done too many finish-ups in folks whom their previous instructor was having them do approaches on like the third lesson. Usually turns out they had no idea what they were doing or how to do it and were doing no more than applying control inputs based on "turn left/turn right speed up/slow down climb/descend" commands from the instructor. I'd usually have to go "back to basics" with them before going forward with their training.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. A formation is supposed to be controlled as though the entire formation is just one big airplane. As such, the Tower is responsible only to provide separation in front of the lead plane and behind the last plane. Spacing between the planes within the formation is entirely the formation pilots' responsibility. They must remain within one mile horizontally be 100 feet vertically from Lead, although in the pattern from downwind on they'll typically be about 500 feet in trail of the formation member ahead after they break from the close formation held entering the pattern. Tower clears the flight to land as a group ("Condor 1 flight cleared to land") and never speaks to any plane in the flight other than Lead.
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That makes sense but apparently neither the controller nor the formation understood that.
 
BananAppeal said:
That makes sense but apparently neither the controller nor the formation understood that.
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Could be, but when Tower starts trying to control individual planes in a formation, it gets ugly fast. BTDT. One time i was leading an 4-ship inbound to initial for the break and Tower starts asking #2 if he has me in sight. "Affirmative, 10 o'clock, 20 feet," says my wingie. The controller just about defecated a concrete block.
 
It is a long slog. Between scheduling, weather, and yet another instructor gone to the airlines, I am still slogging.

Finally did my long cross-country Friday: OXR-SNA-CRQ-OXR. Because of unexpected delays at SNA (the FBO we went to didn’t even start fueling our plane till we’d been there more than 20 minutes)and at CRQ(we were number 5 for takeoff at CRQ, but maybe 10 planes arrived, then no. 1 departed, then no. 6 — a jet behind us). So about 45 minutes behind schedule we landed at OXR, but it was too dark to fly back to SZP by then. The gallant Aeromot drove over and fetched us; plane was ferried back next morning.

Today doing ground with CFII to review questions I missed on the written. Hope we will schedule check ride for April so I don’t have to take the written again, but since I will be gone ten days in February and the CFII ten days in March, I don’t know if I will be ready. Definitely not ready now, but at least I know what I am SUPPOSED to be doing most of the time.
 
Congratulations on great progress! :)
 
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