What to expect in IFR Training?

[Awkward Bird]

We've got a couple of newbies like me starting up IFR training and it looks like we've got some experienced IFR pilots around too. This is awesome.

I'm curious, from you experienced guys and gals, what can we expect during/from IFR training?

One thing I've already heard is my landings will suck. *laugh*

Do ya'll have other words of wisdom or warning?

 

[KSP_530]

According to what I was told, need a ton of patience & discipline (unlike my ppl I was goofing around a little bit), but at the end it worth every effort. That is why I have started my ground school portion ahead so when I am talking to an instructor, I have a better idea what he is talking about.

 

[Don Tedrow]

AB, I haven't had an instrument student in 20 years, but the one thing most every instrument student experiences is the feeling of just being overwhelmed. Five things to watch or do, and time for only three. Many students feel a lot of frustration for a number of hours. First it's just maintaining an instrument scan while flying the airplane through different manuvers. Later it's flying the airplane while navigating and tuning the radios and nav gear. Still later, it's flying, navigating, tuning, reading a chart and dealing with ATC.

Patience, it will all eventually start to fall into place.

 

[Ward Holbrook]

AB, I haven't had an instrument student in 20 years, but the one thing most every instrument student experiences is the feeling of just being overwhelmed. Five things to watch or do, and time for only three. Many students feel a lot of frustration for a number of hours. First it's just maintaining an instrument scan while flying the airplane through different manuvers. Later it's flying the airplane while navigating and tuning the radios and nav gear. Still later, it's flying, navigating, tuning, reading a chart and dealing with ATC.

Patience, it will all eventually start to fall into place.

What Don said.

Everything about the whole process can be quite intimidating, but just approach it in the same manner that you'd eat an elephant - one bite at a time. When I first started my training, I was told that instrument flying was an unnatural act and I wasn't about to argue the fact. However, it all comes together. Just give it time. The nice thing about it is that after you've been doing it for a while and done it enough it truly becomes second nature. When you hit the inevitable plateaus, don't give up it will be worth it.

 

[California Flyer]

Thanks for the words of wisdom! I just came back from my second night of IFR ground school, and so far we have been drilling into the very things that made my brain hurt the first time around (for my private cert)- flying VORs, "what's your magnetic bearing when the NDB points here", "which airplane has the reading that this HSI displays", "if an airplane accelerates on this axis, what's the compass do?" It's like they went into my brain and picked the fuzziest parts, then put a hot poker in there to make it hurt even more.

I figured out I'm what you call an "experiencial learner". That's a fancy way of saying i learn by doing, not by hearing or seeing. As an example, I have caught myself pretending to turn the knob when doing an altimeter setting problem, just to visualize what happens when I increase or decrease the setting. It made it very hard to learn things during my primary training, as I had to be in the cockpit (or at least sitting in the plane) to understand how things worked. Having the CFI go over a maneuver on the ground didn't do anything for my understanding- I had to feel it. That's why I had so many hours by the time I finally passed my checkride.

At least this time around I know what I'm dealing with, and I have my own plane so I have eliminated one variable (different rentals). Hopefully I'll be able to use the flight school's simulator to train my brain too.

My brain hurts.

 

[joelaff]

Cf, of you are an experimental learner I would suggest you try the simulators here:

http://luizmonteiro.com/Learning_HSI_Sim.aspx

Note the link on the left that says Online Simulaors gives you more. There is the VOR, HSI, ADF, RMI, etc, all simulated nicely. You can make the airplane move or just drag it around.

Though you can do a lot of this is a real simulator like XPlane, this site gives you simple, quick tools to learn this stuff. Also, it is hard to find an RMI in some of the bigger 3d sims. I have been using it to refamilarize myself with RMIs and HSIs (biggest thing I forget about the HSI is that the to/from flag is relative to the selected course rather than the current heading. So an "up" arrow is not always a to indication, like of the course selector is pointing behind you... I would pu the words To and From on the HSI, but I guess some people like the ambiguity...)

 

[California Flyer]

Thanks, Joe! During my primary training, I played with this VOR simulator for a long time until things finally gelled:

http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/

I'll check out your link. I have been deliberately navigating with the VORs in my plane since my checkride just to keep my head straight, but haven't used the ADF in my plane, and I have never used an RMI. Those two seem fairly straightforward, but I don't want to even think about how to interpret those instruments, I want to know them cold.

 

[Bigdoggh]

I cant even spell RMI...

 

[wrecksum]

Many of us old and not bold pilots learnt instrument flying before the arrival of pictorial displays, glass cockpits and GPS etc.plus, it was common to do commercial and inst together to save money and the two tend to blur together so I would imagine it would be better to get input from a more recent convert to instruments.

The basic instrument flying can't have changed much so the important thing is to understand fully what each indication is telling you and to believe it. Knowing what to with failed elements can be pretty tricky so it's good to be able to interpret your attitude at any time using less than a full deck of indications.

As far as navigation, we mostly learnt with VOR cross-bearings and DME, where available and of course, the inaccurate NDB.

If you consistently keep your VFR flying tight, good course holding, altitude keeping, situational awareness and communication, then the IFR training will be a natural progression. If you usually fly sloppily, then it's going to be a longer process for sure.

I find that anticipating the next course and pre-setting OBS's before turning in or out, pre-setting the next frequencies where known and knowing in advance what your next call will be allows you to fly the plane when it needs flying and concentrating on the other stuff when you're back straight and level again.

Learning all the regulations is the worst bit!!

 

[vettdvr]

The worst part of IFR / no auto pilot, is IMC on your flt plan route and ATC gives you totally new route wants you to turn, copy and read back, while you have to find the route on the chart that borders your existing chart that of course isn't open. BTDT. and ATC is in a RUSH. Dah!

 

[Nightowl]

Single pilot IFR in such a situation, don't hesitate to use "unable" if you're really swamped.

John

 

[Ward Holbrook]

Autopilot usage during initial IFR training: Don't even think about it.
Autopilot usage during late stage IFR training: Should be introduced - there are right ways and wrong ways to use it.

In the training environment, you're developing a knowledge and skill set. That means that you will use the autopilot very sparingly, but certainly enough to know and understand how to use it properly and appropriately. Out in the "real world" you should always "properly and appropriately" use every tool at your disposal. In the "recurrent" training environment you should "train as you fly and fly as you train".

 

[Nightowl]

Very good advice. Strictly by circumstance (and what we could afford), our PPL training certainly never included an autopilot, but also never included an attitude indicator (known then as an AH or artificial horizon) or a heading indicator (known then as a DG or directional gyro), so all our hood work was partial panel - not a bad way to learn needle, ball, and airspeed.

My instrument training never included an autopilot, though we did use gyro instruments, so everything was hand flown. We're now on our fourth airplane and the first one with an autopilot, and it is a tool we have learned to add to our "bag of tricks". Definitely a help when single pilot IFR, but you'd better be carefully monitoring what "George" is doing, since you are still PIC and totally responsible for the outcome of the flight.

John

 

[IDontFly]

One IFR flight student said "I told my wife I need a band-aid for my pride".

My wife is working on her IFR rating and as far as I can tell it is a bunch of frustration followed by a checkride.

Since our plane has an autopilot and it is coupled to the VOR and the IFR rated GPS I think she will be required to be able to use it. The ADF is now INOP so she won't have to fly an NDB approach.

 

[Ward Holbrook]

...We're now on our fourth airplane and the first one with an autopilot, and it is a tool we have learned to add to our "bag of tricks". Definitely a help when single pilot IFR, but you'd better be carefully monitoring what "George" is doing, since you are still PIC and totally responsible for the outcome of the flight.

Bingo - right answer.

Personally, as far as autopilot usage while IFR goes, I would like to believe that we can all hand fly all the various types of instrument approaches down to their respective minimums correctly and proficiently without any type of aid - flight director, autopilot, etc. If a pilot cannot do that, then he needs to get more training or quit flying IFR - period. The autopilot is designed to be a pilot aid, not a pilot's crutch. That being said, aircraft owners spend great sums of money to provide redundancies for nearly every system on our aircraft - multi engines, dual this, triple that, etc., etc. Here's a question. When we hand fly an ILS approach down to minimums, what redundancy to we have in case of "pilot failure"? In aircraft with two-pilot crews, if the pilot not flying is doing his job, will he be able to effectively take the controls in the case of a botched approach by the pilot flying? Obviously not, and even if he was able to, is solid IFR at 200' AGL and with a 700 fpm sink rate the time and place to be making those types of changes? What about us when we're flying single-pilot IFR? Where's the redundancy? There isn't any.

Personally, I believe that we should hand fly all of the "high and mid" minimums approaches we can, but when the ceiling gets below 500 feet and the visibility gets below a mile couple it up and let the autopilot do its thing. We then become the backup to the autopilot and we have injected an element of redundancy into the operation. In that rare case that the autopilot messes up and gets us sideways to the world, relief is only a click of the autopilot release button away. In the mean time, you have been able to, as Nightowl alluded to, watch and monitor the approach while covering the controls. If it ever becomes necessary, the transition is both instantaneous and seamless.

Here is another item to consider…
We frequently use contract pilots in our flight department. A while back, I had the opportunity to fly with one who subscribed to the theory that "real" pilots don’t use autopilots. It was his leg and we were departing one of the LA basin airports. It was one of those “minimum VFR" days and light aircraft were out buzzing around like mosquitoes in Minnesota. It was a busy day and this guy did a masterful job of hand flying the departure procedure and working with ATC. The problem was that he had his head buried in the cockpit flying the airplane and not looking outside. We have all flown with those hairy chested pilots who say that "real" pilots don't use autopilots. These are the guys who compulsively and habitually hand-fly the airplane at all times except during cruise, including all approaches. Personally, I think that’s not a good idea. Real pilots know when to use autopilots and when it’s best not to. We're just not talking during approaches either. There are other times when we probably have no business hand flying our aircraft. For example, VFR weekends in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area or L.A. basin below 10,000' MSL. Can you really hand fly your airplane aircraft while maintaining an adequate watch for traffic or are you one of those guys who puts 100% faith in his TCAS or ATC? Remember, the basis for traffic separation is still “see and avoid”.

As always, this is just my personal opinion and YMMV.

 

[Ward Holbrook]

...One thing I've already heard is my landings will suck. *laugh*

I blew right past this comment. Your landings might suck during training, but once you're out in the real world shooting actual approaches to minimums you'll probably notice that they tend to become some of the best landings you'll ever have. I think it must be because you're really concentrating on the right things.

In my case, if I'm ever going to pound one on it will be on a nice clear VFR day, calm winds, and usually in front of a bunch of witnesses - on the ground or in the airplane. It's always when I have no excuse. Now on the other hand, I can just about guarantee a very nice landing at the bottom of an ILS to minimums, especially if there's a nice gusty crosswind and some blowing snow involved. It's funny what total concentration will do for you.

Enjoy the training process. Take it one bite at a time. Eventually, you'll be finished and it will be worth it. Once you get the training and checkride out of the way we'll talk about how to break-in that new IR without scaring yourself too badly.

 

[Awkward Bird]

...One thing I've already heard is my landings will suck. *laugh*

I blew right past this comment. Your landings might suck during training, but once you're out in the real world shooting actual approaches to minimums you'll probably notice that they tend to become some of the best landings you'll ever have. I think it must be because you're really concentrating on the right things.

I was thinking about this last night... I "flew" a couple localizer approaches with a bunch of step downs in the simulator yesterday for the first time. My CFII was using it to demonstrate both the difficulty of having to reconfigure the plane over and over (descent and level) at the same time as handling the increasing sensitivity of the CDI the closer and closer you get to the airport. He said I did good. He said usually people fall apart around 5 miles out, I made it to 3.5 NM out on the first pass. Second pass I was actually able to make it all the way to the MDA and then crash off the end of the runway.

 

[joelaff]

I've got one... Say you are on an IFR flight plan squawking 0345 flying along in VMC. You loose radio contact, and the batteries in your handheld are dead (you do have a hand held, right?)

Anyway, the regs say you should squawk 7600 for loss of comm and proceed VFR... The problem is that the controller doesn't exactly know where is VMC and where is IMC (unless you are obviously one or the other).

Does one then squawk 1200 when they continue their flight in VFR? I guess not, since VFR pilots are supposed to squawk 7600 upon comm failure as well...

But... How does the controller know you are continuing your flight VFR? He or she just has to figure it out because you stop flying your clearance?


Also, say you are at 9000 feet in IMC and the cloud bases are at 8000 feet, with good visibility below... Further along yiur route it goes to pure IMC to 500 feet. The MEA is 3000. You loose comm. if you could. Just decend 1000 feet you could be in VMC. But the regs say to fly your clearance at the higher of the last assigned altitude and your MEA...

How many pilots would squawk 7600 and fly the clearance in IMC, and how many would squawk 7700 and decend to VMC?? Are both choices legal?

Discuss...

 

[D.B.]

Several months ago, flying IFR, Portland area to near Seattle, While IMC, a guy from JBLM (Joint base Lewis McChord) was doing approaches and was talking to his controller with a stuck mike on my frequency. I was no longer on my own navigation but was on an assigned heading and altitude. I figured I had 30 minutes before I'd hit cumulo granite and I was starting to get a little nervous. Looked at the chart to see what other frequencies were available. Started trying them. All of a sudden, I broke out of a cloud and was about 2 minutes from entering the next cloud. I chopped the power, slowed down and did a high performance descent. Bases were ragged around 2,000 - 1500 and once I was down there and VFR I finally managed to raise a controller handling a different sector. Told him who I was and about the com problems. He took my cancellation, told me to stay on the squak code and handed me off to another controller. They provided VFR flight following for the remainder of my flight (15 minutes or so). They were great and had no problem that I deviated from what was "expected".

I was taught during my training that if you go lost com and you're in VMC, don't you dare go in the clouds. If you need to, get on the ground and call to let someone know, but whatever you do, stay VFR.

 

[Don Tedrow]

I've got one... Say you are on an IFR flight plan squawking 0345 flying along in VMC. You loose radio contact, and the batteries in your handheld are dead (you do have a hand held, right?)

Anyway, the regs say you should squawk 7600 for loss of comm and proceed VFR... The problem is that the controller doesn't exactly know where is VMC and where is IMC (unless you are obviously one or the other).

Does one then squawk 1200 when they continue their flight in VFR? I guess not, since VFR pilots are supposed to squawk 7600 upon comm failure as well...

But... How does the controller know you are continuing your flight VFR? He or she just has to figure it out because you stop flying your clearance?

First of all, what I'm going to tell you as a retired controller will probably NOT be what some FSDO person would tell you, because they are Flight Standards, not ATC, and no, they NEVER, in my experience, hang around the Tower/Tracon to watch us do OUR thing.

If you squawk 7600 or 7700, any radar facility in range is going to get a VERY, VERY LOUD, EXTREMELY ANNOYING BUZZER in the radar room, and if we can see your target, there is no chance we will not notice. If you were to then change to 1200 a couple minutes later and descend and land VFR; (and please do), then call us after landing on the cell phone just so we can tidy up the very routine paperwork We can figure out what's happening.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:"]
Also, say you are at 9000 feet in IMC and the cloud bases are at 8000 feet, with good visibility below... Further along yiur route it goes to pure IMC to 500 feet. The MEA is 3000. You loose comm. if you could. Just decend 1000 feet you could be in VMC. But the regs say to fly your clearance at the higher of the last assigned altitude and your MEA...

How many pilots would squawk 7600 and fly the clearance in IMC, and how many would squawk 7700 and decend to VMC?? Are both choices legal?
[/quote]

Squawk 7700 for a good minute or two so that we can get any aircraft below out of the way, then do what's SAFEST. Your call, you're the PIC. Getting traffic out of the way of a 110 kt Skyhawk is CHILDS PLAY to an experienced controller.


(getting folks out of the way of a Nordo F-4 Phantom makes you go grey at age 25 and drink to excess....)