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Van's going Broke -- No RV-12 for me, look like

Markv

Long-Distance Cross Country
Joined
Oct 13, 2019
Messages
1,434
I paid $5K down for an RV-12iS. I was looking forward to the day I could boast about my brand new 100 HP two seater, scheduled for Q124.

I had put $5K down, and in November I was supposed to put down another $55K balloon payment. Looks like I can kiss the $5K goodbye. It also looks like my flying days may be over.


 
Interesting that he and his wife have enough money to make loans to keep the business running, but the business itself is broke.
 
If you have $55k, you should be able to get another 150, no?
 
 
Although our testing proved that laser-cut parts are functionally equivalent to punched parts, the belief among many builders is that they are unsuitable for use.
Two guys building an RV-14 told me that when they dimple the laser-cut parts cracks form around the rivet holes. This is their 2nd RV-14 so I believe them.
 
I paid $5K down for an RV-12iS. I was looking forward to the day I could boast about my brand new 100 HP two seater, scheduled for Q124.

I had put $5K down, and in November I was supposed to put down another $55K balloon payment. Looks like I can kiss the $5K goodbye. It also looks like my flying days may be over.



I get a message saying that the page doesn't exist.
 
If you have $55k, you should be able to get another 150, no?
I have zero interest in going that route. I was looking forward to a brand new, 2024 airplane.
Right now I am hitting the "reset" button.
BTW, the final cost for a factory built RV-12iS would have been total $155,000. I could buy five old C-150s for that. Not interested.
 
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Bummer on the news. I read the article on Vans forum. Many folks feel optimistic that the changes made will make the company better. They do produce a good product, and support has been great. A couple of missteps, it happens. I think the Rv-15 may be put on a temporary hold for now, until they get back on solid ground again.

I had purchased a previously started empennage and wing kit, the plan is my long term retirement fun. I think of it as building a really large airplane model, but it's aluminum and using rivets instead of glue.
 
Now in Chapter 11:

 
Chapter 11 isn't Chapter 7. If they can find new financing, they may still be a going business -- or if they're bought out by someone who wants to continue the business.
 
They owe me $4,500 for my initial $5,000 deposit for my factory-built RV-12iS, which I cancelled on the day of the original 10/27/23 announcement. The told me up front that they were not going to honor their contract with me and would not give me our agreed-upon refund per our contract.
I filed small claims against them in Marion County Circuit Court of Oregon and won my case last week (11/27/23), before yesterday's Chapter 11 petition. $4.5K + $302 expenses = $4,802 judgement.
There are a lot of loyal customers posting online who remain effusive about the company.
There are also a lot of people posting online who got screwed out of a lot more than I did and are not so effusive about the "Van's Community" at the moment.
In a nutshell (much more information is available) Van's will be jacking prices and re-negotiating with those customers with whom they already have contracts. Many/most of the customers have already send in the money and the way I read it, it will be a take-it or leave-it proposition. The question many have is: will those customers who chose to leave it get refunds? That question is still not answered as far as I can tell.
There is also the issue of the defective "laser cut parts" fiasco. And, the Philippines-subcontracted Quick Build Kit corrosive primer fiasco. Google it.
Whether or not I ever see my refund I have no idea. I do think that by filing small claims and getting a judgement/lien before the Chapter 11 petition was filed may give me a better chance. At least now I don't need to bother with the hassle of trying to garnish Van's bank account. That's now a moot point. They are protected from that.
Not losing sleep over it.
My loss is peanuts compared to some who have been waiting on kits, propellers, engines (Lycoming, etc.) for months/years
 
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Chapter 11 isn't Chapter 7. If they can find new financing, they may still be a going business -- or if they're bought out by someone who wants to continue the business.
Sounds like an opportunity to make a small fortune in aviation…
😏
 
They owe me $4,500 for my initial $5,000 deposit for my factory-built RV-12iS, which I cancelled on the day of the original 10/27/23 announcement. The told me up front that they were not going to honor their contract with me and would not give me our agreed-upon refund per our contract.
I filed small claims against them in Marion County Circuit Court of Oregon and won my case last week (11/27/23), before yesterday's Chapter 11 petition. $4.5K + $302 expenses = $4,802 judgement.
There are a lot of loyal customers posting online who remain effusive about the company.
There are also a lot of people posting online who got screwed out of a lot more than I did and are not so effusive about the "Van's Community" at the moment.
In a nutshell (much more information is available) Van's will be jacking prices and re-negotiating with those customers with whom they already have contracts. Many/most of the customers have already send in the money and the way I read it, it will be a take-it or leave-it proposition. The question many have is: will those customers who chose to leave it get refunds? That question is still not answered as far as I can tell.
There is also the issue of the defective "laser cut parts" fiasco. And, the Philippines-subcontracted Quick Build Kit corrosive primer fiasco. Google it.
Whether or not I ever see my refund I have no idea. I do think that by filing small claims and getting a judgement/lien before the Chapter 11 petition was filed may give me a better chance. At least now I don't need to bother with the hassle of trying to garnish Van's bank account. That's now a moot point. They are protected from that.
Not losing sleep over it.
My loss is peanuts compared to some who have been waiting on kits, propellers, engines (Lycoming, etc.) for months/years

I don't know if your judgment still leaves you in the "unsecured creditor" class. If so, it's probably not worth the paper it's written on, unfortunately. You would be just one more unsecured creditor standing in line with his hand out. In most chapter 11 filings, unsecured creditors don't get much of what they are owed. On the other hand, if the judgment bumps you up to a higher class, you might get something, which is better than nothing.

The bankruptcy judge will appoint a debtor-in-possession to run the business during the bankruptcy. That might be current management or it might be someone else. Depending on the size of the bankruptcy, the judge may also appoint a creditor's committee, usually made up of a half a dozen or so large creditors.

One or more going-forward plans will be created and given to the judge. If none of them are deemed feasible, the Chapter 11 bankruptcy is converted into a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the business is closed and any remaining assets are paid to the creditors in order of class. Unfortunately, unsecured creditors are the lowest class of all. (Anyone can submit a plan for reorganization. If you know a bunch of pilots who are owed money, you could collectively come up with your own plan and submit it to the judge.)

Some bankruptcies end more happily, with business going forward, probably with new capital of some sort, and possibly with new management. If that occurs in this case, the new management might not be willing to make whole those customers whose claims were lost in the bankruptcy. However, new management may want to honor those in some way in order to create good will among the aviation community.

Lots and lots of "ifs" in there and it's surely going to take some time to figure out how the chips are going to fall. Not losing sleep over it is, by far, the best way to look at it right now.
 
I don't know if your judgment still leaves you in the "unsecured creditor" class. If so, it's probably not worth the paper it's written on, unfortunately. You would be just one more unsecured creditor standing in line with his hand out. In most chapter 11 filings, unsecured creditors don't get much of what they are owed. On the other hand, if the judgment bumps you up to a higher class, you might get something, which is better than nothing.
(snip)
I just found this on Google: "Secured Creditors are creditors that hold a lien on its debtor's property, whether that property is real property or personal property. The lien gives the secured creditor an interest in its debtor's property that provides for the property to be sold to satisfy the debt in cases of default."
I definitely got a letter from the judge specifically stating that I have a lien against Van's. Whether it does me any good, time will tell.
I got some grief from some in the "Van's Community" of faithful for filing the small claim. They want everyone to play nice with Van's in hopes of salvaging their kit projects.
If this results in me getting my bucks back, I will have the last laugh.
 
That sounds promising -- but only if there's enough money to pay all of the secured creditors. I can't remember for sure but I think there are one or two classes above the secured creditors. You can probably find that on Google, too. I seem to recollect that taxes come first, but I might be making that up.
 
That sounds promising -- but only if there's enough money to pay all of the secured creditors. I can't remember for sure but I think there are one or two classes above the secured creditors. You can probably find that on Google, too. I seem to recollect that taxes come first, but I might be making that up.
And administrative expenses are at the top and likely won't be inconsequential. I used to work for the State Department of Insurance Liquidator's Office. We worked hard to get money out of the smoking hole of a failed insurance company and into the hands of claimants who had filed timely. It was a long time ago but I believe vendors were at the bottom of the list and policy holders with unpaid claims were near the top, FWIW.

I feel badly for those who are either going to pay more than contracted or lose their deposits. Perhaps a white knight will emerge...just hope it's someone other than China.
 
The problem with situations like this one is that every pilot that tries to maximize their chances of getting their individual investment returned increases the chances that there isn't enough inertia to create an alternative solution that allows the business to pull through and actually come out the other side in a position to fill the orders. Sort of a prisoner's dilemma. But there are no guarantees that it works out even if that is the approach you take. Tough deal.
 
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